Robert Augustus Masters Q&A Part Two
March 8, 2006
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A. Arthur (adastra) asks:
1. Why do you think some people experience the nondual as bliss, others as terror? Could this be related to agency/communion in some way? That is, might someone who is more oriented to communion have an easier time with it, whereas someone – such as yourself – with a more agentic orientation might have a lot more difficulty?
Or do you think it is mainly or entirely a question of what shadow material is revealed when all the walls come down? Did the unpleasant aspects of the experience derive from vestiges of your ego, still present in the midst of nondual identification?
What factors do you believe are involved in how different people respond to a nondual breakthrough?
2. Did you really have a nondual experience? From closely studying the book, my assessment is that you did; however I've spoken with a number of people who doubt that you had a “real” or “complete” nondual experience, insisting that if you did, then by definition there would be no fear, no discomfort – as there would be no one there to feel unpleasant emotions, only Being itself, which is presumably always ecstatic with all of its manifestations. What would you say to this?
3. Your Ayahuasca experience, as described in Darkness Shining Wild, clearly took place outside a traditional ceremonial setting, and seems to have involved a truly heroic (or perhaps foolhardy?) dose. I have several clarification questions about it. Was anyone taking care of you and Nancy, or was it just the two of you? What do you feel led to the extreme power of the journey, and it's particular quality of nondual awe/terror: was it the non-traditional nature of the setting? The dosage? The spiritual work you had done previously? What kind of experience did Nancy have – was it a similar nondual experience?
4. What advice would you have for people, such as myself, who participate in Ayahuasca ceremonies as part of their spiritual path?
5. What advice would you have for people (unlike myself!) who feel drawn to the 5-Meo experience, or to similar extreme entheogenic experiences, such as DMT or salvia divinorum?
6. Someone sent me the following quote from The Way of the Lover:
“Masturbation is sex bereft of awakened love, sex gone to mind, sex burdened by the obligation to make us feel better. Masturbation is a marriage of genitals and mind, orchestrated by a deeply wounded psyche, a long time suppression of being. In its marriage, love is but an ideal, or a romanticized parody of itself. It's wedding vow is to come on command. It's children are enervation, depression and delusion. It's hobbies are interior decorating, acting and watching television, especially stimulating shows. And, all the while, it secretly weeps for it's transformation. Do not turn from it's sobs. Do not fuck them away. They are your tears.”
Do you still agree with this statement? Are you suggesting (rather strongly) that people not masturbate, or are you using the term “masturbation” in a more metaphorical way? (I get both impressions from that text.) Could you elaborate on this passage? Do you consider masturbation a “lower” form of sexual expression, and if so, how would you advise people to approach it? Do you distinguish “masturbation” from “self-love”, and what would you say about that distinction?
Robert answers:
Let me begin by saying a bit about the nondual:
To nondual being, the inherent inseparability of all that exists is neither a concept nor an experience, but an obviousness beyond understanding, consistently recognized to not only always already exist, but also to be none other than the consciousness that “knows” it. That is, not only is awareness naturally aware of itself here, but it also is knowingly not apart from whatever may be arising, be such manifestation gross or subtle, ephemeral or long-lasting, peaceful or, yes, fearful.
No dissociation from phenomena, no strategic withdrawal from life, nowhere to go, no one to be, while “showing up” as all form, forever and everywhere — such phrases, blooming with mind-transcending paradox, point to the unimaginable yet omnipresent reality of the nondual, and point with unavoidable inaccuracy, given that there is not a fitting language for the nondual (because of the inevitably dialectical nature of language, not to mention the need for an ear that can “hear” nondual statements). What perhaps speaks most eloquently and precisely here is silence — not just the absence of sound, but the primordial chant of Eternity, the presence of which, when felt and truly “heard,” may catalyze a recognition outdancing its every translation.
The reality of non-separation is never not here, never not available, ever “inviting” us to awaken from the entrapping dreams we habitually animate. We may conceive of it as a place, a stage, an achievement, a reward — but it is simply what we forever already are, already transcending (and simultaneously including) every would-be “us” that would attempt to assume the position of self.
The personality is no longer the locus of self, but it still persists — and why shouldn’t it? If one is Being-centered, at home “in” (and as) the nondual, then personality, like everything else, is but one more non-binding expression of Being, asking not for annihilation, but for acceptance. To the realizer of the nondual, everything, everything, is God — anger, joy, duality, personality, fear. There is only God, only the Self, only the Real. So what problem is there, really, if fear arises? From a nondual perspective, such arising is, to put it mildly, radically nonproblematic.
In the nondual, fear is not what is transcended; what is transcended is what was done with fear in nondual states or stages.
Now on to the questions:
1. If they are energetically expansive, bliss is more likely; if they are energetically contracted, terror is more likely. Awe is not so far from awful. Ecstasy and hyperterror are less than a breath apart. Prior to my 5-MeO experience, I’d had many nondual times, both while awake and during sleep. All were blissful, peaceful, easy. I think that my difficulties had much more to do with the shock that my system was thrown into than with agency/communion issues.
When all the walls come down, shadow material may be revealed, and it may also not be revealed, being obscured by the intensity of blissful feeling; this resembles the way in which erotic romanticism can obscure shadow material in a couple (until reality’s rude pricks do their job). In my case, the unpleasant aspects of my experience derived not only from traumatic imprints from my early years, but also from the sheer shock to my nervous system.
What factors do I believe are involved in how different people respond to a nondual breakthrough? Conditioning and the degree to which it has been identified and worked with; meditative capacity and depth of practice; setting; health; emotional stability; openness to the unfathomable; ability to open; ego-strength and ego-transparency; hunger to awaken from not just “bad” dreams, but all dreams; and the list goes on.
2. “I” had a number of nondual experiences -- experiences without an experiencer, none of which lasted more than a few hours. And why should fear be excluded from nondual experience? Yes, there’s no one (no separate self-possessed center of subjectivity) there to feel the feeling, but the feeling is nonetheless felt. “Being...is presumably always ecstatic with all of its manifestations.” Really? How do you know? For me, Being is at home with all of its manifestations, including those feelings that we’d rather not be feeling. If we are to let all things serve our Awakening, then we’d do well to cut through our aversion to unpleasant states, realizing that such states are no more problematic to Being than are dark clouds to the sky.
3. It was just the two of us. “What do I feel led to the extreme power of the journey, and its particular quality of nondual awe/terror?” The dosage; the lack of guidance; the timing; the psychospiritual work I’d done; and, especially, my unacknowledged readiness to break free of the guru-centric trap in which I’d gotten myself so deeply enmeshed. I’m not sure if Nancy’s experience was similar to mine, other than knowing right to her core that there was nothing, nothing she could hang on to.
4. Do in-depth, psychospiritual, integrally-informed therapeutic work before (and also after) such ceremonies; the same with meditative practice. Make sure you have a deep, abiding trust in your guide(s). Be as intimate as possible with your deepest fears.
5. Be very clear about your motivation for doing so. Study the relevant literature. Apply what was said in the previous paragraph.
6. I agree with its overall message, but I would word it differently (I wrote it in my pre-5-MeO days). Masturbation is, to me, mere energetic discharge of sexual energy, and is not necessarily just a solo act, but is what often passes for sex. I consider masturbation to be a denser, unillumined, non-rejuvenative form of sexual expression. (I sometimes also use the term “masturbation” in other contexts, such as “emotional masturbation” or “intellectual masturbation”.) I would distinguish masturbation from “self-love”-- if you are touching yourself sexually, and your heart is in it, and you’re including your whole being in the process, allowing an arousal that goes much deeper than mere sensation, then you are not simply discharging energy, but are taking good care of it.
B. Questions submitted by email (person wishes to remain anonymous):
1. What is your Achilles heel?
2. How does one deal with ego inflation [on the part of the client] therapeutically?
3. What makes you worth 130.00 an hour?
Robert answers:
1. Chocolate.
2. Initially by bringing the client’s awareness to it, without shaming him or her. Soon thereafter, having gathered some relevant personal history, the emotional underpinnings of such egoity can begin to be explored.
3. Most psychologists/psychotherapists charge in the range of $100 to $140 per hour; my fee falls in that range.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A. Arthur (adastra) asks:
1. Why do you think some people experience the nondual as bliss, others as terror? Could this be related to agency/communion in some way? That is, might someone who is more oriented to communion have an easier time with it, whereas someone – such as yourself – with a more agentic orientation might have a lot more difficulty?
Or do you think it is mainly or entirely a question of what shadow material is revealed when all the walls come down? Did the unpleasant aspects of the experience derive from vestiges of your ego, still present in the midst of nondual identification?
What factors do you believe are involved in how different people respond to a nondual breakthrough?
2. Did you really have a nondual experience? From closely studying the book, my assessment is that you did; however I've spoken with a number of people who doubt that you had a “real” or “complete” nondual experience, insisting that if you did, then by definition there would be no fear, no discomfort – as there would be no one there to feel unpleasant emotions, only Being itself, which is presumably always ecstatic with all of its manifestations. What would you say to this?
3. Your Ayahuasca experience, as described in Darkness Shining Wild, clearly took place outside a traditional ceremonial setting, and seems to have involved a truly heroic (or perhaps foolhardy?) dose. I have several clarification questions about it. Was anyone taking care of you and Nancy, or was it just the two of you? What do you feel led to the extreme power of the journey, and it's particular quality of nondual awe/terror: was it the non-traditional nature of the setting? The dosage? The spiritual work you had done previously? What kind of experience did Nancy have – was it a similar nondual experience?
4. What advice would you have for people, such as myself, who participate in Ayahuasca ceremonies as part of their spiritual path?
5. What advice would you have for people (unlike myself!) who feel drawn to the 5-Meo experience, or to similar extreme entheogenic experiences, such as DMT or salvia divinorum?
6. Someone sent me the following quote from The Way of the Lover:
“Masturbation is sex bereft of awakened love, sex gone to mind, sex burdened by the obligation to make us feel better. Masturbation is a marriage of genitals and mind, orchestrated by a deeply wounded psyche, a long time suppression of being. In its marriage, love is but an ideal, or a romanticized parody of itself. It's wedding vow is to come on command. It's children are enervation, depression and delusion. It's hobbies are interior decorating, acting and watching television, especially stimulating shows. And, all the while, it secretly weeps for it's transformation. Do not turn from it's sobs. Do not fuck them away. They are your tears.”
Do you still agree with this statement? Are you suggesting (rather strongly) that people not masturbate, or are you using the term “masturbation” in a more metaphorical way? (I get both impressions from that text.) Could you elaborate on this passage? Do you consider masturbation a “lower” form of sexual expression, and if so, how would you advise people to approach it? Do you distinguish “masturbation” from “self-love”, and what would you say about that distinction?
Robert answers:
Let me begin by saying a bit about the nondual:
To nondual being, the inherent inseparability of all that exists is neither a concept nor an experience, but an obviousness beyond understanding, consistently recognized to not only always already exist, but also to be none other than the consciousness that “knows” it. That is, not only is awareness naturally aware of itself here, but it also is knowingly not apart from whatever may be arising, be such manifestation gross or subtle, ephemeral or long-lasting, peaceful or, yes, fearful.
No dissociation from phenomena, no strategic withdrawal from life, nowhere to go, no one to be, while “showing up” as all form, forever and everywhere — such phrases, blooming with mind-transcending paradox, point to the unimaginable yet omnipresent reality of the nondual, and point with unavoidable inaccuracy, given that there is not a fitting language for the nondual (because of the inevitably dialectical nature of language, not to mention the need for an ear that can “hear” nondual statements). What perhaps speaks most eloquently and precisely here is silence — not just the absence of sound, but the primordial chant of Eternity, the presence of which, when felt and truly “heard,” may catalyze a recognition outdancing its every translation.
The reality of non-separation is never not here, never not available, ever “inviting” us to awaken from the entrapping dreams we habitually animate. We may conceive of it as a place, a stage, an achievement, a reward — but it is simply what we forever already are, already transcending (and simultaneously including) every would-be “us” that would attempt to assume the position of self.
The personality is no longer the locus of self, but it still persists — and why shouldn’t it? If one is Being-centered, at home “in” (and as) the nondual, then personality, like everything else, is but one more non-binding expression of Being, asking not for annihilation, but for acceptance. To the realizer of the nondual, everything, everything, is God — anger, joy, duality, personality, fear. There is only God, only the Self, only the Real. So what problem is there, really, if fear arises? From a nondual perspective, such arising is, to put it mildly, radically nonproblematic.
In the nondual, fear is not what is transcended; what is transcended is what was done with fear in nondual states or stages.
Now on to the questions:
1. If they are energetically expansive, bliss is more likely; if they are energetically contracted, terror is more likely. Awe is not so far from awful. Ecstasy and hyperterror are less than a breath apart. Prior to my 5-MeO experience, I’d had many nondual times, both while awake and during sleep. All were blissful, peaceful, easy. I think that my difficulties had much more to do with the shock that my system was thrown into than with agency/communion issues.
When all the walls come down, shadow material may be revealed, and it may also not be revealed, being obscured by the intensity of blissful feeling; this resembles the way in which erotic romanticism can obscure shadow material in a couple (until reality’s rude pricks do their job). In my case, the unpleasant aspects of my experience derived not only from traumatic imprints from my early years, but also from the sheer shock to my nervous system.
What factors do I believe are involved in how different people respond to a nondual breakthrough? Conditioning and the degree to which it has been identified and worked with; meditative capacity and depth of practice; setting; health; emotional stability; openness to the unfathomable; ability to open; ego-strength and ego-transparency; hunger to awaken from not just “bad” dreams, but all dreams; and the list goes on.
2. “I” had a number of nondual experiences -- experiences without an experiencer, none of which lasted more than a few hours. And why should fear be excluded from nondual experience? Yes, there’s no one (no separate self-possessed center of subjectivity) there to feel the feeling, but the feeling is nonetheless felt. “Being...is presumably always ecstatic with all of its manifestations.” Really? How do you know? For me, Being is at home with all of its manifestations, including those feelings that we’d rather not be feeling. If we are to let all things serve our Awakening, then we’d do well to cut through our aversion to unpleasant states, realizing that such states are no more problematic to Being than are dark clouds to the sky.
3. It was just the two of us. “What do I feel led to the extreme power of the journey, and its particular quality of nondual awe/terror?” The dosage; the lack of guidance; the timing; the psychospiritual work I’d done; and, especially, my unacknowledged readiness to break free of the guru-centric trap in which I’d gotten myself so deeply enmeshed. I’m not sure if Nancy’s experience was similar to mine, other than knowing right to her core that there was nothing, nothing she could hang on to.
4. Do in-depth, psychospiritual, integrally-informed therapeutic work before (and also after) such ceremonies; the same with meditative practice. Make sure you have a deep, abiding trust in your guide(s). Be as intimate as possible with your deepest fears.
5. Be very clear about your motivation for doing so. Study the relevant literature. Apply what was said in the previous paragraph.
6. I agree with its overall message, but I would word it differently (I wrote it in my pre-5-MeO days). Masturbation is, to me, mere energetic discharge of sexual energy, and is not necessarily just a solo act, but is what often passes for sex. I consider masturbation to be a denser, unillumined, non-rejuvenative form of sexual expression. (I sometimes also use the term “masturbation” in other contexts, such as “emotional masturbation” or “intellectual masturbation”.) I would distinguish masturbation from “self-love”-- if you are touching yourself sexually, and your heart is in it, and you’re including your whole being in the process, allowing an arousal that goes much deeper than mere sensation, then you are not simply discharging energy, but are taking good care of it.
B. Questions submitted by email (person wishes to remain anonymous):
1. What is your Achilles heel?
2. How does one deal with ego inflation [on the part of the client] therapeutically?
3. What makes you worth 130.00 an hour?
Robert answers:
1. Chocolate.
2. Initially by bringing the client’s awareness to it, without shaming him or her. Soon thereafter, having gathered some relevant personal history, the emotional underpinnings of such egoity can begin to be explored.
3. Most psychologists/psychotherapists charge in the range of $100 to $140 per hour; my fee falls in that range.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
posted by adastra at 7:42 PM
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